Interview with Elaine Tai, Adult Services Librarian
Elaine Tai by Lanny Nguyen, 2021. https://www.lannynguyen.com/
Elaine Tai is an Adult Services Librarian in the San Francisco Bay Area where she curates social science and poetry collections, and often organizes art events, and leads social discussions and conversations with authors. Her work focuses on the intersections of social justice in librarianship and interrogates bias rooted throughout the profession in areas such as wayfinding and usability. Elaine is also on the Advisory Board for California Libraries Learn (a California State Library & CLA project), member of the California Center for the Book Program Development Group, member/former chair of Pacific Library Partnership Staff Development Committee, member of APALA Program Planning Committee and JCLC Keynote & Pre-Conference Committee, in her second year on the APALA Literature Award Committee for Adult Fiction, and was a founding judge for the Global Literature in Libraries Initiative Translated YA Award. She helps manage Silent Book Club San Francisco and is the author of newly-Kickstarter-funded picture book Yes Means Yes, illustrated by Kai Kwong. In her spare time, she is a wannabe patron of the arts and a [very] amateur artist.
Note: Since the interview, Elaine moved into a new role as a Supervising Librarian in Children’s Services at a different Bay Area library than that referenced during the interview.
Jennifer Woo: What is your librarian origin story? How did you begin to find your place in the library world?
Elaine Tai: So, I was a business major at the University of California at Berkeley, with interests in brand and product management, especially in the fashion and tech industries. After not finding anything quite right and doing a small stint at a small tech company, I had a bit of a crisis. I then thought, “Oh! I want to work with books,” which is kind of cliché, I know. I did want to work in the publishing industry initially, I was also looking into master’s degrees and internships, but that mainly had to be on the East Coast. And then I was looking at publishing vs. library science programs, while I also worked retail as a personal shopper and then manager.
Interestingly, my mom has a degree in Library Science and was never able to convey what that meant, in terms of the profession. The turning point was being in Taiwan at a bookstore, looking at one of my favorite kids’ books, The Phantom Tollbooth. My mom mentioned that she read the book as part of her children’s literature course for her master’s degree in library science. And I was like, “What?? Oh my god, that sounds amazing.” I always read and loved YA and kids’ books, and it was kind of a revelation that you could study children’s literature like that.
I finally decided to apply to Simmons University for their Master’s dual degree in Library Science and Children’s Literature. I backed out of my acceptance after some health issues, and applied for San Jose State’s online program, which felt somewhat safer since I could do it part time while working full time, and not worry about health problems alone in a new city. Halfway through grad school, I started working a bit at Redwood City Public Library - the customer service background really helped with getting that role. Then I was able to join Stanford University and make a full transition to library work, going from part-time, to full-time, then supervisor - that’s where I met you, Jen. I graduated while I was at Stanford in May and was lucky to get two offers in September. I remember it felt so slow because my job search began in January and interviews were not working out. I was getting frustrated because so many of the opportunities were part-time and/or non-benefited. I didn’t have somebody supporting me; how was I supposed to leave my full-time job for that?
I do think I learned a lot working at Stanford, since it provided a lot of insight into circulation operations. It was interesting to see where it might be possible to affect change with circulation and access services within the bureaucracy of an academic library. My internship at San Jose State’s MLK Library with the Historical Children’s Collection was also a great learning experience. Connecting with my supervisor really helped. She was involved in so many aspects of the field, and I was able to see and experience a lot of the different facets of her role and library work.
Art by Elaine Tai
With my current position, I think it was when I started doing more partnerships with community agencies and working with committees that I felt like I got a better sense of myself in the field. For example, early-ish in my time, I had reached out to a Stanford librarian (who happened to live in Burlingame) to help me work on a public program on “fake news,” and then was excited to be invited to participate in the Pacific Library Partnership’s (PLP) News Literacy Toolkit project. Then there was California Center for the Book’s Book to Action programs, which involved partnering with local organizations and setting up a whole series surrounding civic engagement. That led to participating in their Program Development Group, which offered more insight and opportunities for contribution on a larger scale. When I started holding more programs I enjoyed, that I think were well-received, fun, informative, etc., that really helped me feel more like I knew what I was doing. I think I’ve done some really cool author and speaker events, and hosted art exhibits and workshops, and it’s great to be able to highlight various voices.
I joined the Global Literature and Libraries Initiative as one of the founding judges for their Translated YA Literature Award, which then helped me be able to participate as a judge for the APALA Literature Award for two terms. I also joined PLP’s Staff Development Committee and gained a sense of what I knew, and what would be possible in coordinating professional development opportunities. And that experience has helped lead to my involvement on the California Libraries Learn Advisory Council, JCLC 2022 Pre-Conference and Keynote Committee, and now APALA Program Planning Committee.
These different opportunities built up on each other. I think that’s what helped me find my place, by just being able to collaborate with other librarians outside my organization, and being more assured of what I can do and discovering what I’m most interested in, by being given the opportunity to do it.
Finding a community and network of people of color in the field, through APALA and We Here, has also been really helpful and essential. I mean, I honestly never felt more “other” as when I entered librarianship. These spaces are a reminder of what issues are being addressed and the leadership we see in the field. I’m really grateful for those spaces, and resources like “In the Library with a Leadpipe,” the book, Pushing the Margins, and now WOC+Lib.
JW: What’s bringing you excitement, joy, fulfillment and hope during the pandemic: At work? Personally?
ET: At work, I’ve been trying to think of ways the library can bring some relief or offer events that might help people process the collective trauma we’re going through, as well as continue to bring fun offerings like art workshops and author events. What’s been awesome about the virtual format is the ability to host speakers we otherwise never could have hosted due to location. For example, the excitement of connecting with Octavia Butler scholars Lynell George and Dr. Ayana Jamieson and working with facilitators Nethra Samarawickrema and Yuri Zaitsev of the Listening Lab.
Personally, I began practicing art during the pandemic for the first time since I was a kid. It has provided a means of relaxation. Newfound communities supported it in a way I never expected. I’m experimenting more with mediums and styles and challenging myself to not give up on something the moment I fail. It’s exciting to see what else I might do in the future, while trying not to let a need to produce take the joy out of the practice.
Oh, and I Kickstarted a picture book! It was being shopped around by an agent. However, after publishers passed, I decided to launch it as a Kickstarter. My Illustrator Kai Kwong and I are working to complete the book and all our extras. :)
I’ll also be honest in saying the pandemic provided me with more perspective on how I can better care for myself and maintain boundaries around work and rest, and the joy of being around my ornery cat while working from home.
JW: What has been a high-point experience in this library when you felt most alive, successful and effective?
ET: A few things come to mind, since I’m not sure all the feelings apply to every experience, but all are worthwhile in different ways. Moderating discussions with amazing authors and presenters is something that brings me a lot of joy and makes me feel alive. Connecting with and learning from smart, talented people I admire is just such a lovely experience. I also coordinated a First Friday Art Series for a couple years, and it was so awesome to highlight local artists and create a space for creativity for all ages. I saw children really resonate with the art and artists, and I interacted with hesitant adults who begrudgingly took part in activities only to tell me how relaxing and enjoyable it was. And really, any time I can explore and plan learning opportunities it feels like a different means of impact, whether it’s for the public or for those in the field. Managing the Pacific Library Partnership Virtual Future of Libraries Conference in 2020 was a challenging and invigorating experience. I’m honored and happy to work on various committees that help offer professional development opportunities.
Art by Elaine Tai
JW: What do you value most about yourself, your work and your library?
ET: I am passionate about the work I do. Sometimes there is an “all or nothing” aspect about how I approach my work, which may not be great, and having events that I think are cool is maybe a mixed bag. I’ll think it’s awesome, but maybe not everyone is interested. At the same time, helping people where I can and lifting up underrepresented voices is something I enjoy, and often there will be at least one person who expresses how much they appreciate an event happening.
I didn’t really realize that I was going to engage in so much equity work until I started this position and noticed the need for such work, although activism is something I have always cared about. It’s definitely not easy, but I think we have managed to do quite a bit of work around equity in our library (maybe more than one might expect), as well as engage in interesting discussions and events around topics that I still see some libraries avoiding. I want to be authentic and myself at work, and live my ideals, and I want others to be comfortable doing the same when it comes to widening the support and safety the library can bring.
JW: What 3 wishes do you have for change in libraries?
ET: These are some wishes based on working in various libraries, and also seeing research and hearing from peers in other libraries.
Culture of care & anti-racist workplace: There is a lot of lip service around “culture of care” and “diversity” in libraries. We’ve felt it in the past year with the pandemic. I’ve done some regional professional development events where library staff are sharing that this year shows how very little they are cared about. This was the time for people to feel they are receiving care from their institution. There is often this talk about being family and the service Employee Assistance Program that is there for you as a form of care. EAP is there for you but it is not realistic if it’s coming from a workplace that is not caring for you. It’s contradictory. I know we function in a capitalistic society - I come from a place of productivity, and I’m unlearning grind culture and that need to produce. But in general, it’s important that we care for each other - as peers, and also with our patrons and community. I’m not necessarily innocent and perfect when it comes to difficult patrons, but where is the care aspect when we refer to difficult patrons with language like “crazy?”
It seems like there is often also talk about mindfulness and self-care without deeply considering experiences and concerns of staff of color. It seems shameful that we need private spaces for staff of color to talk about their experiences. Like how shameful is it that there is a need for a green book for libraries, for BIPOC to confidentially share what their organizations are like? The fact that there’s a need for racial healing circles for staff of color, a lot of which has to do with how we are treated by peers and how we deal with microaggressions. The concept of neutrality we so value is fake when you are not giving thought to BIPOC staff who are experiencing the issues we talk about like it’s an objective concern. Stepping away from neutrality is a culture of care, or at the very least it’s harm reduction. For example, when one is so scared of letting go of a Dr. Seuss book when there are racist portrayals in it and you are mainly worried about public opinion - but you have staff and patrons who are the targets of the racist tropes - that is not a culture of care. That tells me you are more worried about public reaction than your fellow colleague. Care that is not intersectional does nothing for BIPOC library staff. I think that is why we need to continuously take a look at issues like vocational awe and the impact our actions have on our colleagues and patrons.Further connection, celebration, and transparency within: Celebration is probably my desire to be celebrated and recognized for my work, so maybe I’m selfish there, but also, we should be celebrating everyone right? It often seems like we focus on negatives and don’t highlight the positives. Kaetrena Davis Kendrick has been doing studies for years about the low morale of library staff for a reason. Part of that is that we deal with patron difficulties, but sometimes the ways we’re told to deal with them are not healthy, or there’s a focus on our failings in the workplace. There are incidents in the library where we are encouraged to brush it off, ignore, and not think about it, unless it’s something we made a mistake on. I’d love to see us celebrate the good we do, cool things staff do in and out of the workplace, and create an environment with feelings of abundance rather than scarcity. Good things don’t have to be finite, so we can celebrate a number of things and not worry we are just being compared.
There is also often a lack of transparency which leads to gossip and mistrust, and it doesn’t unite us. I think a lot of people saw this in the past year when the entire world had this uncertainty and fear about what was happening, and everyone was on different wavelengths and comfortability while undergoing trauma. So, you know, how can we be connected and help decrease other aspects of the unknown when everyone is already on edge?More willingness to experiment and fail: The pandemic was scary and difficult in different ways, due to the changing nature of the virus. It was tricky because there was so much quick turnaround and short-term response to a long-term issue. But there was also often a hesitancy to try new things when it was the time to just try different solutions that could be beneficial. People tend to say things move slowly in libraries. There is a lot of talk and discussion about new ideas but often a strong sense of fear when things go wrong and mistakes happen; there is fear of action due to a fear of consequences. But how much time is spent discussing possibilities and never getting there, when there will also be failings to address no matter what? And then when failure happens, people might focus on mistakes and have difficulty moving forward. People get sick of hearing me say this, but working retail, we tried a lot of things. And not every action led to good results, but if it didn’t work, we tried something else and kept moving forward. You got used to having to test things out, and if something failed it failed.
I think sometimes there is also a resistance to change that encompasses an org culture, and then suddenly there’s this need to hurry and catch up to their surrounding counterparts. Or you might have libraries that do the flashy thing but not thoroughly think issues through, maybe make mistakes and not address them, and others don’t want to be like them either. I’m not saying it’s easy, but there has to be a good middle ground right?
JW: You and I are on separate but aligned paths towards creating racial equity at our libraries. Tell me about the work you’re doing.
ET: I wasn’t necessarily aware of all the equity concerns in the field before I joined the profession, but it’s definitely important for libraries to consider social justice issues when we’re supposed to be the bearers of information. Librarians like to talk about themselves as the “last bastions of democracy,” but then staff are willing to say and do things that hurt staff of color.
My library started an equity committee a couple years into my current position. We started the equity committee and joining was open to all interested staff. We participated in the California State Library and Califa group’s California Libraries Cultivating Racial Equity and Inclusion (CREI) Initiative. This helped us take a look at our local histories, why libraries should be looking at these issues, and why we’re responsible for contributing to and helping address inequitable situations. If you are an organization stating that your library is a safe and welcoming place, and that that is your wish for the entire community, then hopefully others won’t disagree.
We do have a web page dedicated to our racial equity work, along with resources and booklists. We also recently allocated some funds to purchase items filling collection gaps in representation, e.g. more Asian artists, graphic novels with more BIPOC representation, etc. For the past couple years, the library, along with a committee of city and community members, has also been asked to do programs for the public in relation to the city’s United Against Hate proclamation. Trying to make sure this is more than surface-level, can be a challenge.
Then the pandemic hit and a few things happened. Our hourly library workers were furloughed for at least a year. The majority of POC on our staff are hourly workers, and our equity team shrank to five people - CREI finished it’s initiative virtually and two hourly staff were unable to finish the initiative with us. It became harder for us to continue the work with everything going on. Then you start adding in the Anti-Asian Hate incidents and the much-delayed amplification of Black Lives Matter as murders were recognized as what they were. The equity team ran presentations on AAPI hate, xenophobia, and how to intervene on behalf of a coworker, as well as workshops on the 1619 Project since that is history that hadn’t been learned by most. The library publicly issued BLM and AAPI statements, and the team got really tired trying to advocate and educate.
To be honest, there’s a lot of things I want to do that are stalled and yet to happen because I am tired. We can only do so much, and I’m sure many of us doing the work are tired of trying to convince peers that there are ongoing issues to address. It’s exhausting convincing others of BIPOC humanity, and equity work is rarely recognized or appreciated. A couple years ago, I did a presentation at LAUC-B (Library Association of the University of California - Berkeley conference) on the identity formation of POC in white spaces with Academic Librarian Andrew Carlos. That allowed me to do a literature review of the experiences of library workers of color. More research needs to be done in the public library space. There is a lot more research on academic librarianship because research is part of their role as faculty, while in public libraries such research is not seen as useful for the public interest, and it is the “public” that we serve. This is something I would like to see more of and work on if possible. Meanwhile, I’m excited because I’m helping with JCLC 2022, and it’s exciting to work toward this supportive environment by, with, and for BIPOC staff.
Regarding future work for libraries, I want them to live the values of racial equity. We still need to address collection development and programming policies. It’s time to step away from traditional and white presenters who’ve presented at all the regional libraries for the past 20 years. Training is not going to do it. Committee work is not going to do it. Everyone needs to take part and look at themselves and what they can do. We all need to consider how we are complicit, and be better about understanding each other. It’s not an “us” vs. “them” issue. The bias is internal for all of us. It’s a lot of work.
Art by Elaine Tai
JW: What advice and suggestions can you offer People of Color who are interested in becoming future librarians in public libraries?
ET: Especially by now, institutions should be able to answer what they are doing to make the organization more equitable. Go ahead and ask the library about their DEI work. I don’t always like the phrase “diversity and inclusion” but if that’s the easier term to use, ask what they are doing regarding diversity and inclusion for staff and the public. Look at what events they do. If their events are homogenous in terms of presenters and content, it might not be a great place to be. Ask them about it. “I see that you have events on _______. Would you be open to bringing in events for _____ communities?” I also know there are those who are ready to be “that person,” and there are those who don’t want to be “that person.” The work ended up being important to me, so if it matters to you, ask about it. And the answers to these questions may inform you whether this is an environment for you.
Join ethnic caucuses and support networks. I’ve known about ethnic caucuses for a while now, and I’m surprised to hear when colleagues, especially white colleagues, don’t know what they are. It’s good to be in an environment where people can relate and validate your feelings when there are problems. You also get to meet and hear from amazing peers and advocates, and witness cool things that are happening to lift voices in the community, even if they are not highlighted by others. Ethnic caucuses are some of the most supportive communities because they are helping each other. So, when there is a good job, opening, or collaborative opportunities, then you get that environment and community where we lift each other up.
It does seem like a lot of past generations have been taught to internalize and not verbalize common issues that we continue to deal with - “This is how it is, and we deal with it.” “When they go low, we aim high.” But I’m impatient and I’d rather create a community and future that will be better for people coming in. I’m honestly at times not sure if I want to be in this field anymore. I want reasons not to say to others, “Don’t become a librarian.” If the field keeps going along the same trajectory, then that will be my answer - that it’s not safe. This is an information field. You figure it’s going to be safer. I’ve worked in recruiting and retail and been in various workplaces, and it’s one of the most egregious fields I’ve worked in. Don’t be surprised that some of your colleagues don’t know of racism in library history. There will be those in the field who think that libraries will do no wrong. There will be those who don’t realize the impact of their actions.
JW: For all the energy and resources you put into your work, how do you find rest and what do you do to focus on your well-being?
ET: Well, I engage in far too much retail therapy, which is fun when it comes to doing things like surrounding myself with art (and since the pandemic, designer/art toys) which make my home feel comforting and inspiring, although it also may not be great for my financial well-being. On days off, I feel out or figure out my mood during my time off before deciding what to do. I see how I’m feeling before deciding on plans for the day - whether it’s just lying in bed, being happy to wander alone somewhere, or knowing I need to see a friend rather than isolating, I try to do what will bring me some peace. This summer I also decided to spend more time at the beach, since I love to be near water, and everything about the beach forces me to just relax. I mean, how much are you really going to do with all the sand?
At work, I see what I’m able to do and what I need to do. Sometimes, it means swapping out one task for another.
JW: You introduced me to Call Your Girlfriend (CYG), a podcast about long distance besties. It is one of my guilty pleasures. I am continuing to practice CYG’s Shine Theory, as defined by Ann Friedman and Aminatou Sow: “Shine Theory is an investment, over the long term, in helping someone be their best self — and relying on their help in return. It is a conscious decision to bring your full self to your friendships, and to not let insecurity or envy ravage them”. In the spirit of CYG, I’ll ask their final question for every guest on their podcast: What is your favorite snack?
ET: This very much depends on mood. I’ve been eating a furikake chex mix which I’m now obsessed with. And then I think kettle chips or Calbee Seaweed or Honey Butter chips are some main standbys. And maybe babybel cheese…? Sweet snacks have been more of a dessert for me - so I don’t think of those as casual snacks.
Jen Woo (pronouns: she/her/hers) is a Chinese-American librarian in San Francisco, California, Ramaytush Ohlone land. She is a current Adult Services Librarian and former acting branch manager, teen services librarian and library page. Jen is a volunteer for APALA and CALA committees and a co-moderator for Silent Book Club, San Francisco chapter. She can be found posting Instagram stories on her latest reads and other adventures at @woo_is_me. This is her first contribution to WOC+Lib.